MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST:
Here in Germany, leaders from around the world are prowling the halls of the Bayerischer Hof Hotel. They are here, like us, for the Munich Security Conference, an annual gathering focused on defense, diplomacy, alliances. One group that's new this year - Germany's far-right political party, the AfD. They were not here last year, an absence that Vice President Vance noted and criticized in his bombshell of a speech at the conference one year ago. NPR international correspondent Rob Schmitz and I met up today on a busy balcony right above the front entrance of the conference, and we talked all this through for our weekly national security podcast, Sources & Methods.
(SOUNDBITE OF EMANUEL KALLINS AND STEPHEN TELLER'S "PLUNGED INTO CRISIS")
KELLY: I mean, I wonder, is it partly the AfD is getting harder to keep from the table as they become a growing force and bigger presence in Germany?
ROB SCHMITZ, BYLINE: That's - yeah. I think that Vance's speech, even though it shocked many Europeans at the time - this was a year ago - I think in the time span since last year, I think people have started to think more and more about what he said. And the AfD - I mean, we need to talk about this political party. In Germany, it is a rising party. And I'm talking, you know, most mainstream parties in Germany are losing voters. The AfD is actually gaining voters. And they're now in second place when you look at any poll in Germany.
KELLY: What do they actually stand for? I mean, I think, to the extent that this gets play in the American press, it's focusing on some AfD members who seem very nostalgic for Germany's past and particularly the Nazi piece of Germany's past. What's their policy agenda?
SCHMITZ: Well, I think it can be summed up in four words, make Germany great again. And this is a familiar slogan.
KELLY: That's not as easy...
SCHMITZ: Yeah. And...
KELLY: It doesn't roll off the tongue like MAGA.
SCHMITZ: It doesn't roll off the tongue...
KELLY: No. OK.
SCHMITZ: ...Because of the history of Germany. And yes, what you mentioned about the hearkening back to the Nazi era - there are several members of the AfD that have gotten in trouble for doing just that. But right now, the AfD seems to be changing its tone a little as its poll numbers have gotten much higher. And I think what we're hearing less of are these fringe sort of things that they used to say that hearkened back to, you know, World War II era Germany. And what we're hearing more of now is, how do we revive Germany's industry? How do we become a country that we can be proud of again? But I think, you know, this all, though, boils down, in many ways, to what started with AfD and what I think drew so many supporters to them, and that's migration.
KELLY: Right.
SCHMITZ: Immigration, right? So...
KELLY: Immigration.
SCHMITZ: Yeah.
KELLY: Huge issue here as...
SCHMITZ: And out of control migration to Germany.
KELLY: ...Everywhere. Yeah.
SCHMITZ: Absolutely. And I think it's the lack of success of many different governments of mainstream parties that has turned people to the AfD because the AfD has constantly talked about this.
KELLY: OK. So make Germany great again - MGGA (ph).
SCHMITZ: Yeah.
(LAUGHTER)
KELLY: That's right.
SCHMITZ: A convenient acronym.
KELLY: Yeah. I mean, make Germany great again - how does it align or not with MAGA in America? Or, you know, I mean, I'm thinking more broadly about parties on this - political parties on this side of the pond, Nigel Farage's...
SCHMITZ: Yeah.
KELLY: ...Reform movement in the U.K. I mean, they are seen - I don't mean to oversimplify - but a little bit as maybe European cousins in terms of a big-picture...
SCHMITZ: Absolutely.
KELLY: ...Worldview of the MAGA movement in America. Are they? I mean, are they aligned on much?
SCHMITZ: I think they're aligned on quite a bit, but you're starting to see some sort of breakaway from the just blind kind of devotion to what Trump stands for.
KELLY: Well, Greenland. Greenland has been...
SCHMITZ: That's right.
KELLY: ...A dividing issue. The far-right here was not on board with President Trump's designs on Greenland. Am I right?
SCHMITZ: That's correct. And the reason they weren't is because it's become a sovereignty issue, right? Suddenly, you have an American president that's threatening to take over a European territory. And then also another issue that came up within the last couple of months was the U.S. operation in Venezuela. That was also, for the AfD and for many far-right parties in Europe, a big red flag because it also was more of a sovereignty issue for them. And for them, I think that is a big concern because sovereignty, I think, in many ways, is one of the most important principles that they stand for.
KELLY: NPR's Rob Schmitz in Munich, and you can hear the full episode of Sources & Methods wherever you get your podcasts. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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