STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:
So glad Joanna remains on the scene in Kyiv, bringing us day-to-day accounts of the war there, and Heather Conley has been listening along with us. She was Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for European Affairs from 2001 to 2005. That would be the Bush administration. She was the top diplomat for Central Europe at that time. That period saw the largest ever expansion of NATO. She's now a non-resident senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, which is a think tank. Welcome to the program.
HEATHER CONLEY: Great to be with you, Steve. Happy Holidays.
INSKEEP: Thank you, and same to you. Do you detect any movement whatsoever in these negotiations?
CONLEY: No. There was no breakthrough, clearly. And both sides are trying to keep the United States on their side. So you can clearly see work with Ukrainians and the Europeans to keep the plan from not being one-sided towards Russia. And then you saw the U.S.-Russia dimension trying to keep the United States more in Russia's camp and vision of things. So more alignment than breakthrough.
INSKEEP: When I think about the United States reaching out to Russia again and again and again - this comparison is not exactly right, but I think about myself as a journalist, I reach out to officials, and some of them, of course, come on the program and some of them don't come on the program. And once in a while, I get a spokesman who's like, I'm very professional. I'm always going to get back to you. And the answer is always going to be no. I mean - I'm feeling that that's what the response the United States is getting from Russia. They come back with the same position again and again and again.
CONLEY: One hundred percent. And it's because Vladimir Putin has been so clear and consistent from the very beginning. This is really not just simply about negotiating a peace deal. He wants to address what he calls the root causes. And the root causes for him was what his view is the greatest geostrategic catastrophe of the 20th century, the collapse of the Soviet Union, the enlargement of NATO. And he wants to redo that. So this is so much bigger. Of course, Ukraine plays the critical point of that plan. So this is all about addressing Russia's grievances from 30 years ago.
INSKEEP: Meaning that there is no territorial swap, no line you could draw that gives them part of Ukraine but leaves an independent Ukraine that would ever be acceptable to Russia so far as we know.
CONLEY: So, I mean, this, again, gets back to the international system that we want. So we are - the United Nations bases on territorial integrity and sovereignty. One nation cannot decide that it's, you know, it doesn't believe the other has validity. And so this is about reassuring territorial integrity, of which Vladimir Putin, in 1994, acknowledged Ukraine's current, you know, internationally recognized boundaries. So it's not restoration of historic lands 'cause we start getting into that business, and the international system is absolutely going to be highly unstable.
INSKEEP: Do you see any usefulness in the effort here if it does ultimately prove that Russia doesn't want anything except war, which makes it easier for the United States to stay on the same side as its European allies?
CONLEY: So again, many times, the Russians take actions. They continue to push boundaries, probe weaknesses and they trip into things that they shouldn't. You can think about the Novichok poisoning in the United Kingdom.
INSKEEP: Yeah.
CONLEY: And I think this always sort of returns Europe and the United States to understanding truly what Russia's hybrid warfare - excuse me - and its aggression, how highly unstable it is. Look, war is happening - excuse me - in Europe. It's happening through hybrid warfare, which we're only seeing intensifying.
INSKEEP: I've just got about 30 seconds left, but suppose President Trump called you up and said, fine, you don't seem to be impressed with my negotiating efforts. What's your advice? What would your answer be to the president in that case?
CONLEY: Continue to pressure Russia economically and militarily. Continue to work closely with your European allies. Support Ukraine because restoring territorial integrity restores the stability of the international system, and that is great for the United States.
INSKEEP: Heather Conley is a former Deputy Assistant Secretary of State, now at the American Enterprise Institute. Thanks so much for getting up early.
CONLEY: Thank you.
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