A MARTÍNEZ, HOST:
For more on how far Democrats are willing to take the shutdown fight, we've got Congressman Pete Aguilar of California on the line. He's chair of the House Democratic Caucus. [inaudible] Congressman. So do you think the Trump administration is bluffing?
PETE AGUILAR: Well, I think what the Trump administration is trying to do is to use federal workers as political pawns. We saw what they did and how ineffective DOGE was, firing people only to hire them back. It's unfair to use these workers to get caught up in the political fight, and it just shows the length to which Donald Trump and his Republican henchmen will carry out their priorities and that they always want to put themselves over the American public.
MARTÍNEZ: But they did fire people once. So do you think that they would not do it again this time around?
AGUILAR: I think they'll do whatever they can to scare people, to impose harm on our communities. These are federal workers who are, around the country, providing essential services to people, providing services to the public. These firings have nothing to do with government funding, and we're going to continue to push back against attempts to undermine the federal civil workforce, just as we always have. Nothing prevents Donald Trump from carrying out firings, as he has done over the last nine months. And nothing prevents him from doing that. Today, he's going to continue to do that if it meets his agenda and harms the American public.
MARTÍNEZ: Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer has said that any firings are likely to be overturned in court and ultimately reversed by the administration. If - Congressman, if indeed that is the case, does that strengthen the Democratic Party's position to not give in to Republican demands?
AGUILAR: Well, we're not concerned about strengthening in position or, I mean, it - this isn't about gamesmanship. This is about, you know, that type of decision. If the president moves forward to fire people, that hurts the American public. That hurts people. And even, you know, winning in court six months from now doesn't do much to help that family, you know, in the short term. And so, you know, we hope it doesn't get to that point. But just as we've seen, the Republican chaos machine and the Donald Trump chaos machine, you know, firing folks over the last nine months, we can't stop that. And the Supreme Court has had Donald Trump's back in these firings over the last few months, and so there isn't anything that anybody can do to stop that. What we can do is to speak clearly and honestly about the importance of protecting health care in this country and the importance of meeting that need for the American public.
MARTÍNEZ: But isn't it easier, then - and so to speak - to toe the line to just stand firm if you don't believe that No. 1, these firings are going to happen, and No. 2, that these firings wouldn't be reversed? Wouldn't it be easier if you truly believe that, that you can kind of keep your position the way it is?
AGUILAR: We're keeping our position the way it is because it's the best thing for the American public. Republicans have manufactured a health care crisis in this country with their big, ugly law that they passed in July that has only added to the affordability crisis that Americans were facing because of Donald Trump's tariffs. So we're going to continue to hold that line because it's the right thing to do, and it's what - it's in the best interest of the health and safety of the American people.
MARTÍNEZ: As far as you know, Congressman, are your Republican colleagues completely and 100% united in their support for the administration carrying out mass firings?
AGUILAR: Well, specific to mass firings, you know what, we just don't know, A, because Speaker Johnson has canceled the legislative session that is coming up. We have not been around our Republican colleagues. There have not been negotiations among the leaders. We've made it clear for months that we're willing to work with anyone who wants to come to the table to talk about government funding, and Republicans have not met with us, and Donald Trump canceled a meeting with legislative leaders. That's not something that you would do if you wanted to solve a crisis.
MARTÍNEZ: Yeah. Mike Lawler of New York said he doesn't support mass firings, but he says, quote, "there's a simple way to avoid it - pass the continuing resolution." I mean, is it that simple? A simple way to avoid it?
AGUILAR: Well, I don't think so. I mean, there's - what we need to do, it's a - it's simple, as my colleague from New York said. It's legislative leaders coming together and having conversations to avoid that action. But that's only done if - in a bipartisan way, if we solve this government funding crisis. But Republicans refuse to meet with Democrats even if they need our votes. So what we are saying is very clearly, if you need our votes to fund the government, then you need to meet with us. And that's going to mean we have to address important health care issues for the American public. Until then, Republicans must have a plan to fund government if they aren't meeting with Democrats.
MARTÍNEZ: Congressman Pete Aguilar of California is chair of the House Democratic Caucus. Congressman, thank you.
AGUILAR: Thank you. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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