TONYA MOSLEY, HOST:
This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley. And my guest today is filmmaker Ryan Coogler. You probably know his name as the director of "Fruitvale Station," "Creed" and both "Black Panther" films. Well, his new film is called "Sinners," and it hit theaters just last week. It delves into horror with a genre-bending thriller set in 1930s Mississippi. The story follows twin brothers - Smoke and Stack - both played by Michael B. Jordan. After surviving the trenches of World War I and navigating Chicago's criminal underworld, the brothers return home to Mississippi, hoping to start fresh by opening a juke joint. But peace does not last long. Instead, they're met by supernatural forces - vampires - who act as metaphors for oppression, exploitation and systems that feed on Black life, body and spirit.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "SINNERS")
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character) I only ever heard stories. I ain't never come across them myself.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As character) What stories you heard?
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character) How haints work. They switch places with the soul of a man. But vampires is different - maybe the worst kind. The soul gets stuck in the body - can't rejoin the ancestors, cursed to live here with all this hate. Can't even feel the warmth of a sunrise.
MICHAEL B JORDAN: (As Smoke) OK. Can we bring him back? Maybe if I kill the ones that made him this way.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character) Smoke, they have a connection, but they live on even if the one that made them is killed. The best thing we can do for him is free his spirit from this curse. They got to be killed one by one.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #3: (As character) And how the hell do we do that?
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character) Sunlight, and a wooden stake to the heart.
MOSLEY: Ryan Coogler says "Sinners" is also a tribute to his late uncle James, who first introduced him to the blues. When he was a kid, Coogler would soak up his uncle's stories about Mississippi as old Delta blues records spun in the background. Coogler's debut into the film world happened in 2013 with "Fruitvale Station," which chronicled the final hours of Oscar Grant, a young Black man killed by police in Oakland. Since then, he's become the highest-grossing Black filmmaker in history and the youngest director to helm a billion-dollar movie with "Black Panther." He decided to press pause on making "Black Panther 3" to take the risk of making "Sinners." Ryan Coogler, welcome to FRESH AIR, and congrats on this film. I have seen it twice, and I enjoyed it very much.
RYAN COOGLER: Hey, I appreciate you having me. I'm really thrilled to be here.
MOSLEY: So, Ryan, you put "Black Panther 3" on hold - that is a billion-dollar franchise, as I mentioned - to make this film. In a moment when it seems like Hollywood is kind of playing it safe to sequels and remakes, what made you say, this is the story I have to tell now? And even if it means stepping away from the success of something like a Marvel machine, did that feel like a risk?
COOGLER: Yes. But to be honest with you, it would have been more of a risk to not make it. The movie was kind of on my heart. And when you have something that clear, for me, it's a rare thing. And I had this idea, and it was very - well, I will go back to say, like, I didn't put anything on hold for this. You know, it was more, you know, like that last "Panther" film took a lot of time. You know, it took more time than any of us had anticipated it taking. You know, those movies tend to take about two years. You know, this one took four because of...
MOSLEY: The last "Black Panther" film. Yeah.
COOGLER: Yeah, "Black Panther: Wakanda Forever" was because of the tragic passing of Chadwick Boseman. Rest in peace. The global pandemic. And in making those films, man, like, there's so many - there's so much interest. There's so many people involved. There's so many industries that are around.
MOSLEY: When it comes to a Marvel film. Right, right.
COOGLER: Yes.
MOSLEY: Yep.
COOGLER: Yes, yes. Because, you know, and it is - I'm not complaining about it, but there is a lot of pressure around those movies. And I just made two back to back, you know, so I was coming off of both of those projects, you know, knowing there was no way I was going to do another one next. You know, I was going to have to do something - you know, I was going to do something different, you know, before I came back to that. But, for me, I got hit by almost like a bolt of lightning.
MOSLEY: You said this particular film, "Sinners," was, like, it was on your heart to do. And I want you to take us back to when that idea really clicked for you that...
COOGLER: Yeah.
MOSLEY: ...Not only the creation of a story like this, but that the story didn't have to live in one genre, even one reality, because...
COOGLER: Yeah.
MOSLEY: ...You're blending so much here. I mean, you're blending...
COOGLER: Yeah.
MOSLEY: ...History, historical drama, action, all against the backdrop of 1930s Mississippi. What made you realize that this mix was necessary to fully bring this story to life?
COOGLER: This movie was, like, all about dichotomy, you know, and that's something that I've been dealing with my whole life. You know, this feeling of not totally fitting in or things not totally squaring with each other. You know, like, coming up, I was Black. I was from Oakland. I was middle-class, and I was in these neighborhoods where my parents were kind of outliers. They got married young, and they went to college, but they stayed in their neighborhood, you know? So I constantly, as a kid, would feel like I was, like, living in two different worlds. There's a dichotomy there. And I took the student (ph) serious. I was, like, a big old giant nerd, but I was also, like, a very, very serious athlete, you know?
And where I'm from, to be an athlete, you're, like, adjacent to street culture. You know what I'm saying? Like, you know, you get, you know, you get cool points in the streets when you're good at football or basketball or running track like I was. I was also raised Christian. I was raised Baptist in the Black Baptist tradition. You know what I'm saying? But I was going to Catholic school. So I was around these, like, two very different types of Christianity, and trying to reckon - you know what I mean? - reckon with that on a daily basis. And it made me very sensitive to themes of identity, you know, and the dichotomy as an idea.
MOSLEY: That's so interesting because I really feel it almost with every single character in this film. I want to talk to you in a minute about how you complicate, like, villains. But the use of vampires, in particular, to, like, really articulate the story. One of the vampires says in the film, I want your stories, and I want your songs. And that line is very important for me.
COOGLER: You got to finish it, though.
MOSLEY: Oh, finish it for me.
COOGLER: He says something after that.
MOSLEY: Say it.
COOGLER: Yeah, he says, and you're going to have mine.
MOSLEY: Yes, right, right. Exactly. Exactly. Right.
COOGLER: Yeah.
MOSLEY: It's important - that's such an important line because it brings into focus that these vampires are, like, draining more than blood. They're draining culture and identity, but they're also offering something back, like, in replacement of that. Like, how did you land on using vampires as a metaphor for that kind of extraction?
COOGLER: I mean, I'll be honest with you, to me, allegory, metaphor, all these things, I'm not going to tell you that they're not present in my work - right? - but I was not - in this case, with this project, I was not being conscious of it. You know, like, I was trying to - you know, I was trying to communicate a feeling through cinematic language. And the reality is, as I've gotten older in this business and in this craft, you know, I realized that if I can make something true, it's up to the viewer to draw those parallels. You take the thing, and you analyze it. And with - and in your analysis, you might project your own experiences, your own knowledge. You know what I'm saying? And you might draw certain parallels that weren't the parallels I always intend, you know?
MOSLEY: But I think it's super fascinating, though, that, like, when I asked you the question about, like, what drew you to this story and why you had to tell this story, you said immediately, like, my life experience is the reason why I wanted to tell this story. What drew you to a vampire story?
COOGLER: Yeah, I love vampires, man. Like, you know - and I love horror fiction. I love horror movies. I love fantasy. I was raised, you know, around a lot of organized religion, and vampires intersect with all of that. You know what I mean? Like, in - I grew up - also grew up in Oakland, which, like, was - which is very dominated by street culture, you know? And, you know, all these things, like, I find - vampires - they pull from all of that in terms of supernatural creatures.
And I thought, when I - when the idea came to me for this movie, I thought about other supernatural creatures as the thing that they confront at the juke joint. I went down the line. You know, like, I thought about werewolves. I thought about zombies. You know, I thought about shape-shifters, which, in some Indigenous cultures, might be referred to as skinwalkers. I thought about all - you know, I got - I'm - I went through the whole Rolodex, you know, and I kept coming back to vampires because of everything that the vampire implies in public consciousness.
You know, vampires - it's not a steadfast rule, but it's pretty commonly associated with sensuality. Vampires are expected to be sexy, usually expected to be fashionable, usually expected to be knowledgeable, usually expected to be very powerful. It's not thought of as wrong if a vampire is converted to vampirism, but they maintain their human personality - you know, their human memories. It's a fascinating premise. You know, you'll see a version of this - you know what I mean? - almost in every culture. And to me, you know, like, that is, like, a fascinating thing. If I'm trying to have a conversation about our common humanity, you know - like, which, for me, you know, this movie is about, you know - and, you know, what better to contrast, you know? Oh, the other piece that the vampire evolved is the Faustian deal. I was very interested in that.
MOSLEY: Like, this crossroads - like, the devil...
COOGLER: Yes.
MOSLEY: ...The deal with the...
COOGLER: That's correct.
MOSLEY: ...Devil kind of thing.
COOGLER: Yes.
MOSLEY: Yeah.
COOGLER: Robert Johnson is who's most associated with that fable. And there's this tradition of things being taken. You know what I mean? There's songs being sung over and over again, you know, by Black people, you know? And then it was eventually done by white people, you know what I mean? Like - and because it a - and because it was such an awfully racist time when they built this industry, genre was kind of born out of this idea. Like, where a Black person would sing a song - and you're talking about a backbreaking form of apartheid, you know, at this time. And a Black person sings a song. White person comes, sings the same song, same lyrics, same rhythm, same music. And they would say, all right, the Black person song - that is a race record. We're going to sell that as a race record. This song is rock and roll. You know what I mean? We're going to sell that as rock and roll. Like, that concept, you know?
And imagine me in 2025, saying I'm going to make a genre movie, not even understanding that classification of art and how some art is above other art. You know what I'm saying? Like, I'm - you know, this is a period drama, or this is a - or that's a genre movie. You know, I realized, oh, man, my people have been at war with this, you know? From the beginning, this has been a tool kind of kind of lobbied against us, you know? So for me, the vampire was a creature who's, like, human-adjacent - who was human at some point, you know, became something else. But through their advanced age, they could see society for what it was.
MOSLEY: If you're just joining us, my guest is filmmaker Ryan Coogler. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF LUDWIG GORANSSON'S "BURY THAT GUITAR")
MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR. Today, we're talking to filmmaker Ryan Coogler about his new film, "Sinners," a genre-blending vampire thriller set in 1930s Mississippi that deals with themes of history, faith and race. But through the lens of horror, it stars Michael B. Jordan in dual roles as twin brothers who return to their hometown in Mississippi to open a juke joint. And it includes a tormented bluesman, Irish vampires who carry the trauma of their own colonial past, and Chinese shopkeepers navigating life in the Jim Crow South - outsiders in their own way.
Jack O'Connell, who plays Remmick, the Irish vampire antagonist - he is relatable kind of in the same way that I'm thinking about Killmonger in "Black Panther" was relatable. Like, in many ways, saying - kind of speaking the truth, speaking the truth to systems of oppression. What draws you to creating antagonists who are, in many ways, right about the things that they know? You know, it's not such a straight line, good guy, bad guy. Like, each one is complicated.
COOGLER: I think that's scarier, you know?
MOSLEY: It is scarier, yes. Say more...
COOGLER: Yeah, I think that's...
MOSLEY: ...About that.
COOGLER: I think it's more frightening when - the film is about blues music - right? - which is storytelling. But it's also a music that I think was made to help a people who were constantly under attack - to help them cope, to help them feel better and to remind them that they were human, you know what I mean? To remind them. Like - and that's what the music is. And for me to have a creature who's incredibly powerful, who was human at the time, who is in pain, you know, and who needs to cope in a way that only a community can give him - if I can make a film where you're afraid of this guy, you know what I mean? But that's really what's going on with him. I thought about it after I wrote it, and I said, oh, man. Who does he lie to? And who is he honest with? 'Cause, for me, it's very clear that he identifies with these people.
MOSLEY: Meaning, like, the Black people. Right. This...
COOGLER: One hundred percent.
MOSLEY: Right. This...
COOGLER: Yeah, yeah. He identifies with them. And that connection between what we experienced - we being African Americans, foundational African Americans who experienced under the - forcibly removed from the continent of Africa and placement, you know what I mean, in the Americas and the systems that were built after that, you know, our experience and the experience of the Irish people being forced to work, you know, land at the eyes - immeasurable abundance and wealth, but being denied that. Yeah. So I mean, like, the connections between the two cultures are really obvious to spot, you know, you know, but also, like, in the history here in the States is very complicated. You know what I mean? Like, like, you know, because of the mobility of certain immigrants, you know, the ability to become white, you know what I mean?
MOSLEY: Right. The Irish became white. Yes.
COOGLER: Yeah, and what that took as it relates to camaraderie with us, you know what I mean? A decision had to be mad, you know what I'm saying? And when you making a movie about American blues music, you know what I'm saying? Like, you know, Irish folks got to have a place in that, you know what I mean? Like, they were there.
MOSLEY: It's so interesting because I think that most of us don't know that history. And so when it shows up in the film, it makes sense when you go back and you read the history, which I did 'cause I didn't know it going into this film, but I had to learn it afterwards. There's also the Chinese American store owners who in the film operate these two grocery stores. So one is in the Black part of town, and then one is in the white zone. And they kind of exist in, like, this cultural limbo.
COOGLER: Well, I mean, they're across the street from each other. Yeah. It's the white side...
MOSLEY: Yeah.
COOGLER: ...Of the street and the Black side, yeah.
MOSLEY: Right.
COOGLER: Yeah.
MOSLEY: I mean, they're never fully kind of accepted in white or Black communities, but more so, it feels like, in Black communities. I had a friend who saw the movie and said, like, did this really happen? When did you learn about that history?
COOGLER: You know, the reality is, they were accepted in the Black community. You know, how we you found out was ironic. Like, like, you know, 10 years or so back, we were doing 23andMe, you know, and obviously a lot of - they in the news a lot lately, I've been seeing. But, you know, everybody was trying to find out their heritage, and for foundational Black people, you know, we was jumping on it - right? - because of, you know, all of the indignities done to our ancestors. At the top of it was the deliberate splitting of ethnic groups through the transatlantic slave trade to quell rebellions that were constantly happening. You know, so as a result of that, you know, we don't know what ethnic group we're from. I spat in the tube and, you know, like checked it out. And they just came back - it came back, like, 86% West African. And I was like, oh, man, that didn't tell me what I - like, I knew that.
MOSLEY: I know that. Yeah.
COOGLER: And I shared it with Chadwick Boseman when we met. And he said, hey, man, check out African Ancestry 'cause they do it the proper way. You can really find out, you know, some answers to these questions. And I did mine. And my wife, whose father is African American - her mom is from the Philippines, you know what I'm saying? So her pops takes the test. He tested his X chromosome, his Y chromosome, right? His X chromosome comes back West African. Guess what his Y chromosome comes back. Chinese, Han Chinese. He - you know, this man is in his 90s. He opened that packet up and said, like, what the - you know what I mean? And where is he from? He was born in Chicago. Where were his parents? From Mississippi.
MOSLEY: That's right.
COOGLER: So we start digging into it, you know what I'm saying? You know, we find - and we find out that, you know, my wife's Black dad comes from these people. The erasure. You know, they were there. You know, that is not - you know, the only - what I like to say, the only thing false in this movie is the vampires, you know what I'm saying? Like, you know...
MOSLEY: (Laughter).
COOGLER: You know, they were absolutely there.
MOSLEY: Our guest today is filmmaker Ryan Coogler. We'll be back right after a short break. I'm Tonya Mosley, and this is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "I LIED TO YOU")
MILES CATON: (Singing) Something I been wanting to tell you for a long time. It might hurt you. Hope you don't lose your mind. Well, I was just a boy 'bout 8 years old. You threw me a Bible on that Mississippi road. See, I love ya, Papa. You did all you could do They say the truth hurts, so I lie to you. Yes, I lied to you. I love the blues.
MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley, and I'm speaking to Ryan Coogler about his latest genre-bending film, "Sinners," a vampire thriller set in 1930s Mississippi. Born and raised in Oakland, California, Coogler studied film at USC School of Cinematic Arts. He won a Sundance award for his first film, "Fruitvale Station," and went on to direct "Creed" and "Black Panther," which became the first superhero film to receive a best picture nomination at the Oscars. Coogler chose to delay the production on "Black Panther 3" to focus on bringing his latest film, "Sinners," to life - what he's described as one of his most personal and ambitious projects to date.
The technical wow factor to the way the images popped is really striking - specifically, for me, the cotton field driving scenes. Were those real cotton fields?
COOGLER: They were. They were, but we had to transplant them. And then we used digital technology to replicate them at times.
MOSLEY: Did you ever have a moment in a cotton field in the making...
COOGLER: Oh, yeah.
MOSLEY: ...Of this?
COOGLER: Well, I had a moment before. Like, when I was still trying to - when I was still - when I didn't have the movie in my head just yet, but I was dealing with a lot of the elements. I was working on "Panther 2," and I was in Byron, Georgia. And I looked out of the window when my teamster was driving me to the hotel, and I saw my first cotton field in person.
MOSLEY: What was that like?
COOGLER: Man, it really messed me up, man. I told him to pull over, you know, 'cause I was already sad and contemplative. You know what I mean? And I got out the car and walked into it and, you know, took a piece. I took a piece home. I still got it at home now. But, you know, the fact that I had been at this age and done all I'd done and had never seen - you know, I wear cotton every day, you know. And I know the story of my people and, you know, the fact that what, for many years, has been the most powerful, you know, empire in the world sentenced them to that being their life, working in these cash crop fields. And I - like, looking at it, seeing it for the first time - it messed me up, and I knew I wasn't done with it.
MOSLEY: I'm really struck by what you said - that, you know, the blues connected people to their humanity. It reminded them that they were human. And blues serves really as the sound and the soul of this film. Your relationship with the blues - you talk about your Uncle James. What music did he play around you? What was he into?
COOGLER: Man, he played all of it, man. He was big on Albert King. He was big on Muddy. He was big on Howlin' Wolf. He was big on Koko Taylor, big on John Lee Hooker, Sonny Boy Williamson, Mississippi Fred McDowell. He was big on all of them, man.
MOSLEY: You being a kid of the '80s and the '90s, what was it like for you to sit at his knee and listen to that music? Did you appreciate it at that young age?
COOGLER: I just liked being with him. I wasn't thinking about the music. You know, like, I associated it with him. And at that time, the blues wasn't for - I didn't think the blues was for me. I didn't think it was mine. You know, like, it was just old men's. And, like, to be honest with you, I thought the blues was, like, for white people. You know what I'm saying? 'Cause at that time, you know, you had, like, the movie "The Blues Brothers," which I hadn't seen. But, you know, on the poster, it was these white dudes with these hats. You know what I'm saying?
MOSLEY: (Laughter) Yeah. Yeah.
COOGLER: Like, you know, so I was like, OK. You know, the blues is for old Black people, and it's for white people. You know what I'm saying? 'Cause I was listening to Tupac. And what's crazy is my favorite song, group and music video was Bone Thugs' "Crossroads," not even knowing that, like, (laughter) you know - right? - like, the crossroads is - like, you know what I'm saying? Like, that's a blues thing. You know what I mean? Like, it made its way into Cleveland gangster rap, but it was really that, you know, but I didn't know. I was a kid. And it took my uncle dying, and then me listening to the music without him anymore to explain it to me. But I'm trying to hang on to every word, trying to see if - you know what I'm saying? Like, if I can get a clue about my uncle's life or, like, why he liked this stuff. You know what I'm saying? And then, boom - I realized the brilliance of it. Like, that this was the base that everything came out of.
MOSLEY: How did legendary blues guitarist Buddy Guy become part of this project? It was so cool to see him. That was, like, a really cool cameo.
COOGLER: Buddy Guy was, like, the last musician my uncle would go see consistently. You know, he would get dressed up and go to his concerts, like, up till his death. So when I was finishing up the script, I had this idea. When I got to those last few scenes, I was like, Oh, man, wouldn't it be cool if - like, wouldn't my uncle get a kick out of Buddy Guy being in this movie, you know? So I kind of got that - I kind of had that idea. And I talked to my casting director, Francine Maisler, and my producers, Zinzi and Sev, and said, hey, I'm going to try to get that - get Buddy Guy in this movie. And, you know, everybody kind of panicked a little bit, you know, but then, you know, we got into it.
And Zinzi and I went out there and went to his restaurant, Blues Club Legends. I fully expected Buddy Guy to say, hey, man. It's nice to meet you, kid, but I'm not being in a movie. You know what I mean? Like, I'm good. I'm - you know, I'm almost 90 years old, bro. You know, like, I'm not - I don't have time for that. And so I was prepared for that. But his kids - man, they were smiling at me, you know? And I go to sit down, and he's like, look. You know, I don't know who you are or what you do, but my grandkids tell me I should sit with you, and I should hear you out. You know, and I've decided, you know, whatever you need from me, 'cause they speak so highly of you. You know what I mean?
MOSLEY: Has he seen...
COOGLER: You know...
MOSLEY: ...The film? Have you guys talked to...
COOGLER: He has, yeah.
MOSLEY: ...Him since? Yeah.
COOGLER: We showed it to him in Chicago.
MOSLEY: What did he say?
COOGLER: He gave it the stamp of approval. You know, like - you know, 'cause that - you know, that was his life, man. He was a sharecropper in Louisiana and had to make the decision to leave home. And he has so many beautiful stories, but a lot of them are heartbreaking, man. Like, he wears polka dots - polka dot suits, polka dot guitars. And I asked him why. And he said when he left home to become a blues musician, he told his mom he was going to make enough money to buy her a polka dot Cadillac. You know, and she passed away before he could do it, so the polka dots became his trademark. You know what I'm saying? And just that story of him having to - like, me imagining this nearly-90-year-old man having to explain to his mom, hey, I'm going to leave home. I'm going to try and go be a - I'm going to try and go make it with this guitar. You know, while she's in what was a slave shack in Louisiana. You know what I mean? Like, sharecropping. You know, and he's here in 2025 completely lucid, telling me all about it.
MOSLEY: Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guest is filmmaker Ryan Coogler. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF LUDWIG GORANSSON'S "FRUITVALE SUITE")
MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR, and I'm talking with Ryan Coogler, the director behind the new film "Sinners," a genre-bending vampire thriller set in 1930s Mississippi. The story follows twin brothers, Smoke and Stack, both played by Michael B. Jordan. There is this moment when one of the twins - he says something like, it's better to deal with the devil you know. And he's referring to having lived in Chicago and up north and gone all across the world, but now he's back in Mississippi. And you, being a guy who was born and raised on the West Coast in Oakland - your accent gives it away.
COOGLER: (Laughter).
MOSLEY: What did you learn growing up about kind of those myths? Like, you talk about the shame a little bit, but those myths that somehow ...
COOGLER: Yeah.
MOSLEY: ...The West or the North or the East was better than the South.
COOGLER: I was born in the wake of the military defeat of the Black Panthers. So that dream of a better life in the West, you know, that was gone.
MOSLEY: You did not grow up with that myth that where you are is better than the South?
COOGLER: No, I grew up - look, the first movie I seen in theaters was "Boyz N The Hood," you know, which, you know, I was 5 years old when my dad took me to see that movie, and, you know, that was what was happening, you know, down on Highway 5 from us. You know, I was 4 years old.
MOSLEY: You saw "Boyz N The Hood" at 4 years old?
COOGLER: I might have been actually 5. Yeah, yeah. I was born in '86. I think that movie came out in '91. Yeah, I was 5 years old. You know, my dad - but, you know, my dad was, you know, dad in his 20s. He heard that it was - he had just lost his father before I was born. My mom's dad died before he - before I was born. Both of my parents' fathers died within two weeks of each other, right after they got married. And, you know, he was - he heard that this was a movie fathers - Black fathers would take their sons to, so he took me, you know? He did the same thing with "Malcolm X," like, six months later.
MOSLEY: Five years old in the theater watching "Boyz"...
COOGLER: Yeah.
MOSLEY: ..."N the Hood." Do you...
COOGLER: Yeah.
MOSLEY: ...Remember the scenes that, like...
COOGLER: I remember everything.
MOSLEY: ...Were seared into your brain that stuck with you? 'Cause that's a real powerful movie for a 5-year-old.
COOGLER: I remember the whole movie. Yeah, my memory with movies is pretty solid. Yeah, I remember all of it. I saw "Malcolm X" shortly after. And it was really ironic because I - we just premiered "Sinners" in that same room at that same theater. And my dad sat in the same row.
MOSLEY: You noted in the moment that like, wow, my dad is sitting in that same row, and we're...
COOGLER: Absolutely. Man...
MOSLEY: ...in the same theater.
COOGLER: ...I was a mess. Yeah, I was a mess the whole night. Yeah. Yeah, I was a mess the whole night. It was my favorite screening of anything I ever made.
MOSLEY: You and Michael B. Jordan, you guys have worked on "Fruitvale Station" and "Creed," "Black Panther" and now "Sinners." In "Sinners," he plays twin brothers. Why twins?
COOGLER: It's a great question. The film deals with dichotomy, as I mentioned, and I was born into a family with loads of twins, specifically, like, my mom's older sisters, who are identical, my Auntie Merlin (ph), and my Auntie Cerlin (ph).
MOSLEY: So you saw that intimacy of twins up close.
COOGLER: Oh, yeah, my whole life. I can't - like, my aunts have always been around. One of them was my godmother, you know? So they always been a part of my life. The dynamic between them and the stories, you know, they're in their 70s now, and they live next door to each other. But the stories, man, of, like, them beating people up and (laughter), you know, like, the fact that they can't live with each other, they can't live without. They're constantly arguing. You know, the games they would play with people when people couldn't tell them apart. And the fact that I - that us and our family always could. We could turn our backs and feel one of them come into the room and know which one it was. You know what I'm saying? So it was something that I was always interested in exploring. And it felt mythical. The other thing is, like, identical twins are kind of always outlaws. You know, they're kind of always local celebrities. And, like, there's always, like, a level of othering that happens with them.
MOSLEY: So I was talking to filmmaker RaMell Ross a few months ago about his basketball career.
COOGLER: Oh, yeah, RaMell. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
MOSLEY: He relayed how hard it was for him 'cause, you know, he played basketball from the time he was a kid, all the way through college, and then he got an injury. And it took him a long time to, like, sit in this role as filmmaker. And you have a similar story. You played football in college. You suffered a shoulder injury. What was that process of transition like for you, especially when there's so much of your identity tied to, like, being a ball player?
COOGLER: It was - so that wasn't totally accurate. I got - I suffered a lot of injuries, like, broke all type of bones. But injuries didn't take me out. I was actually healthy when I stopped, which was more difficult than if I wouldn't have been, I think, you know? 'Cause I made the decision to stop playing when I could have kept playing.
MOSLEY: Why'd you make that decision?
COOGLER: I think my heart was in filmmaking more, and I knew I wanted to make films while I was young, you know, 'cause I felt like young people weren't represented in the industry behind the camera. You know, like, I could feel it in the movies. Whenever I watched a movie about a young person, I was like, man, I don't know if this is accurate, you know? And I realized, oh, yeah, man, like, you know, the average age for somebody directing something is a lot higher than these characters they're portraying, and, you know, and for me, you know, I wanted to try to get going early. I had this instinct that I should try to - I got something to say now, if that makes sense.
MOSLEY: To be a voice of a generation.
COOGLER: I wouldn't say all of that (laughter).
MOSLEY: To be a voice in a - of a generation, like, one of...
COOGLER: There you go.
MOSLEY: ...The voices. Yeah.
COOGLER: Yeah, yeah, one of them. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, one of them, for sure. I wanted to contribute while I still was young, that was all. And I realized that I liked the movies by young filmmakers. I remember watching "Mean Streets" and saying, oh, yeah, this is a different Scorsese than "Goodfellas" or "Departed," you know what I'm saying? Like, this feels - like, I can feel his youth, you know what I'm saying? Or do the right thing, you know, versus Black Klansmen, you know what I'm saying? Both great movies, but, like, it's a different spike. Movies made by young people are almost always really dynamic. Their youth and their optimism and their anger kind of infects the cinema. So I wanted to do that, you know, like, and it was like, damn, I could keep playing football and see how long it takes me. But I had a feeling that it would be a while if I kept persuing ball, you know, that I could play for a little bit more.
MOSLEY: I want to end asking you about legacy because I heard there was a bidding war over "Sinners," and part of the deal was that you'd retain final cut and you'd get share of the theatrical opening and eventually...
COOGLER: (Laughter).
MOSLEY: ...Own the film...
COOGLER: Yeah.
MOSLEY: ...Outright after 25 years, which I felt like that's such a boss move. Is that all right, first off, and why was it important for you?
COOGLER: I mean, it's some truth that some of those articles, like, I haven't seen any that were totally accurate. But the thing is, like, what I'm, you know, those terms are not new terms, like, they're not unique. You know, I wouldn't say are unique, but there are other filmmakers out there in the world who have not made as much money as I have at the box office, who've had these terms for a long time. It's not that unique, you know, for me to ask for these - to have asked for these terms and for me to have received them, right? You know, I wrote the script on spec. Our production company has made some really incredible movies in the past, you know, and there was no shortage of companies that wanted to work with us, thankfully, you know what I mean? Like, for me, the film was so persional and about my family, and, you know, 100 years ago, my family were sharecroppers. One hundred years before that, they were in a different type of situation, if you catch what I'm saying. So, for me, that was something that I stood on, you know, that my company stood on, you know? And I was so thrilled that Warner Brothers was comfortable with us that standing on that and saw value in this project. And I have to imagine there were some people that were upset by that, you know what I mean? Like...
MOSLEY: Well, I feel like owning "Sinners" outright after 25 years, I mean, it is a long play, and I just wanted to...
COOGLER: Long time.
MOSLEY: ...Know your vision for this story...
COOGLER: I'm praying I'm still around.
MOSLEY: ...Over that kind of timeline. Right?
COOGLER: I mean...
MOSLEY: But is it something that you imagine expanding or revisiting or building upon in the future?
COOGLER: I wouldn't rule anything out. But that was not the reason. Like, the reason for me was just - for me, it was just this story that I wanted to - you listed the films that I made before. I made these movies when I was very young and they came at a steep price. I was not there when my uncle died because I was making a movie. I missed so much, you know, making these movies before I was 40 years old. And they've done well over $2 billion at the box office, you understand? And I will never own any of these movies. The next movie I make, "Black Panther 3," I will not own that. Disney will own that, you know? It was time for me to own this.
MOSLEY: Ryan Coogler, this has been such a pleasure to be in conversation with you. Thank you so much for this, and thank you for this film.
COOGLER: Thank you for watching, and thank you for talking about it and bringing your brilliant expertise to it. I'm looking forward to folks hearing it.
MOSLEY: Ryan Coogler's new film "Sinners" is now in theaters. After a short break, Carolina Miranda reviews a new novel by Laila Lalami. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF LUDWIG GORANSSON'S "SMOKESTACK TWINS") Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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