SCOTT DETROW, HOST:
Changing your mind can be a slow, uneasy process. It means admitting that perhaps you didn't have the full picture at first, or your initial takeaways were just wrong. It's even more difficult when you have made those initial ideas public, and they have been widely cited. And that is exactly the position Christian theologian Richard B. Hays finds himself in. Nearly 30 years ago, the New Testament scholar wrote a book that laid out moral guidance for dealing with modern ethical issues. In his book, "The Moral Vision Of The New Testament," one of the topics Hays tackled was the issue of homosexuality. Like many Christian thinkers of that time, Hays did not see any Biblical support for homosexuality or same-sex unions within the church and penned a chapter that many Christians cited to exclude LGBTQ people from the church.
But in the years since that book was published, Hays had more interactions with gay and lesbian Christians and saw how vital they were to the church. And he also saw how his work had pushed them out. Now he and his son, Old Testament scholar Chris Hays, have written a new book together called "The Widening Of God's Mercy." In this new book, they argue the exact opposite - that the Bible does support same-sex relationships and that LGBTQ people should be welcomed into Christian churches, full stop. Theologians Richard B. Hays and Chris Hays join me now to talk about their book. Welcome to ALL THINGS CONSIDERED.
RICHARD B HAYS: Thank you. Good to be with you.
CHRIS HAYS: Thank you. It's good to be here with you.
DETROW: Chris, I want to start with you because just there, we talked a lot about your dad and his influence. You're also a theologian, and I'm wondering, did you agree with your dad's view back then when that first book was published?
C HAYS: You know, when the first book came out, I suppose that I was - you know, like him, I came out of a cultural matrix in which homosexuality was not much talked about. I don't think that there was a single person out in my high school class, for example. So I read his book for the first time when I was in seminary. And at the time, you know, I would have called myself, you know, quite moderate, but it made sense to me at the time. And so then I had to go on my own journey, if you will, from there, as we both did.
DETROW: Richard, when did you begin to feel that maybe that first pass didn't have it all right, that you had framed things in a way that you were rethinking and that LGBTQ people did have a place in the church?
R HAYS: Well, first let me clarify one thing, Scott. In that book, I actually argued that gay and lesbian people should be welcome in the church. I even said that if they're not welcome in the church, I will have to walk out of the sanctuary with them, leaving only those who feel qualified to throw the first stone. But I did venture the judgment that if they were going to be in the church, they needed to remain celibate. I gradually became uneasy with what I had written, especially as I saw how what I had written was in some quarters weaponized. I think that was a misreading of what I wrote, but I left myself open to that in serious ways.
DETROW: I appreciate the clarification. And before we get into to really the meat of the book and the arguments you're making, Richard, why do you think this has taken up so much mental space for so many Christians over the last couple decades?
R HAYS: There are many people, especially in the more conservative evangelical churches, who have a view that every word of the Bible is divinely inspired, and it can never change. And so if there's half a dozen verses in the Bible that pass negative judgment on same-sex relationships, that's the end of the discussion, period, full stop. And I think that that is a naive and actually inappropriate way of reading the Bible. So our new book is partly trying to reframe how the Bible is authoritative. It's not rejecting Biblical authority, but it's trying to have a more nuanced view of how the Bible works as a narrative to shape Christian communities.
DETROW: And Chris, to that end, a key argument in this book hinges on the Hebrew word nacham. Can you tell us what that means and why it's so important?
C HAYS: Yeah, it's a term that has a range of different possible translations, everything from changing one's mind to feeling sorry for something that one has done. And it's one that is perhaps surprisingly used of God quite a bit throughout the Bible. God does have repeated changes of heart and mind, and, you know, God is portrayed as interacting intimately and personally with all of these different characters in the Bible. And humans often don't react well to God's changes of mind and God's new plan, and yet God does new things. So, like, in Isaiah 43, it says, God says, I am doing a new thing. Do you not perceive it? And so I think that what that calls for from us as people who read the Bible and take it seriously is to continue to be attentive to the new things that God is doing.
DETROW: Throughout the book, you're pointing out places where people are kind of mischaracterizing God's message. What do you see as some of the most basic mischaracterizations of God as it applies to the focus of the book, how Christians treat LGBTQ people?
R HAYS: One of the themes of the New Testament chapters that I wrote in the book is that people who are conscientiously attempting to uphold what they believe to be something that's a changeless command of God, actually, with all good intention, end up acting in ways that are contrary to the spirit and intent of God's commandments. So a parade example for me is the story where there are some Pharisees confronting Jesus in the synagogue. And there's a man who had a withered hand, and the Pharisees are watching to see whether Jesus will do something to heal him, which they believe is breaking the Law of Moses because healing would be doing work on the Sabbath.
And so Jesus looks at these guys and says, is it lawful to do good or to do harm on the Sabbath, to save life or to kill? And then Mark, the Gospel writer says, Jesus looked around at them with anger. He was grieved at their hardness of heart and said to the man, stretch out your hand, and it was - the hand was restored. The interesting thing about it is that they're operating with a deep intention to be obedient to God's law, but Jesus is grieved at their hardness of heart. Now, I think we see things like that happening over and over in the stories of the Bible and that the desire of God is for healing and inclusion of more and more people and that the rigid attempt at obedience actually is operating contrary to God's will.
DETROW: Richard, I want to ask you how you feel about this book being out in the world.
R HAYS: Well, I'm feeling good about it. You know, change is sometimes hard, but it's something that Scripture itself calls us to all the time - repentance. The Greek word for it is metanoia, which means a change of mind. So, you know, there's a sense in which I'm eating some of my own words, and I'm concerned that it will perhaps burn some bridges and break some relationships that I've cherished. But, you know, as I age, I wanted my final word on the subject to be out there, and so there it is.
DETROW: We've been speaking with theologians Richard and Chris Hays. Their new book is called "The Widening Of God's Mercy." Thanks so much to both of you.
R HAYS: Thank you.
C HAYS: Thank you. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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