STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:
Here's what we can expect in Rome in the next few hours and days after the death of Pope Francis. We're told his body will be placed in a coffin at 8 o'clock tonight Rome time - that's 2 o'clock Eastern time in the United States. The Pope's family and several senior Vatican officials will take part in the rite. Funeral comes in a few days. The papal conclave to choose a new leader comes after that. We spoke earlier with Father Tim Kesicki to get his thoughts. He's the former head of the Jesuit Conference of Canada and the United States.
TIM KESICKI: Well, I was a little surprised because we thought he was going to die over a month ago, and he had made an appearance in St. Peter's Square for Easter Sunday. But also, I think Easter is a beautiful time to die. We knew he was near death. And so it comes as both a relief, so that he's no longer carrying all of this burden, and the completion of 12 years as pope.
INSKEEP: Twelve quite dramatic years. It seems to me that he struck a different tone than other popes, but how much do you think he really changed the church over that time?
KESICKI: Yes, he clearly was a pastor, and that was his impulse was always to be pastoral. His change on the church we're going to see in the next, really, five to 10 years when we look at how future - the next pope and future bishops follow his lead and example. I know that he will be remembered, live on in many people's hearts, and I'm eager to see how we continue much of his message.
INSKEEP: Oh, now, this is an interesting thing that you point out when you talk about the future because I was reading that the pope appointed something north of 150 cardinals during his time. Would these be people who bore to some extent his personal stamp and his approach to the church and to God and to the world?
KESICKI: I would say, certainly, he chose people, he preferred people who had strong pastoral instincts, but he also wanted to broaden the College of Cardinals to include representatives from all over the world. He had a first from Tonga, for example, and many other countries that had never had a cardinal. And so I think you're going to see two things, both that pastoral focus but also a greater global representation when they meet to elect the next pope.
INSKEEP: If you're just joining us, we are covering the death of Pope Francis, who has died at the age of 88, according to the Vatican. And we're talking with Father Tim Kesicki, who's a former head of the Jesuit Conference of Canada and the United States. And, Father Kesicki, it's particularly interesting to talk with you because Francis was a Jesuit. He joined the Jesuit order...
KESICKI: That's correct.
INSKEEP: ...In his early 20s. For those who are not familiar, who are the Jesuits? How are they different from anyone else? And how did you see Jesuit thinking if at all in Francis' papacy?
KESICKI: Yeah, so he was the first Jesuit ever to be elected pope. And the church really hadn't elected a pope from a religious order since 1830, so it's been quite some time. The Jesuit order was founded by St. Ignatius Loyola in 1540, and largely for the care of souls, with a focus on the intellect. Pope Francis grew out of that. He served, had a great love for the poor, in his native Argentina, but rose to become archbishop of Buenos Aires. And when he was elected pope and he came out, he had this very humble demeanor. And interestingly, he's also not an intellectual in the sense of a published academic. He had great academic preparation but was not a published academic. So the first Jesuit, I think, is an opportunity to see the power of religious orders in the church and also a voice from a different continent.
INSKEEP: As a non-Catholic, I have come to think of the Jesuits as people who are willing to be engaged in public events, who have something to say about the news of the day or actions that relate to the news of the day. Is there some connection between that and the way that the pope did speak out on very many current issues?
KESICKI: Yes, he was very much - there's an old Latin expression, in medias res - to assert oneself in the middle of things. He was very much in the middle of things. We often saw his commentary on contemporary issues when he was flying back from a country he visited because he, like popes before him, went back to the press section of the plane and shared his thoughts on any number of issues. And some of the things that he said sometimes struck people because was he speaking with the full authority of the church, or was he offering perhaps his opinion? And in many cases, it was both. And he did love to be engaged in the world, always, always a strident defender of the poor, the downtrodden, the marginalized and the oppressed.
INSKEEP: Because of that, he was seen as a liberal. That was a label that people on the outside would put on him. Did you see him that way?
KESICKI: Well, it's interesting because I think, as you noted earlier, he did not make any substantial changes to church doctrine. He did not - you know, in a sense, the fundamental teachings of the church remain the same. But he always took a pastoral inclination, so he cared for the individual before him. And he always put the individual before him ahead of what the church might officially teach. And that led some of his critics to say, well, is he sowing confusion? Is he clouding the issue? He would say, no, I'm not clouding the issue. I'm showing that we always have to put the soul in front of us before our own servitude.
INSKEEP: Oh, meaning that even if the person in front of him did not follow church teaching, he would deal with them as an individual, as a person?
KESICKI: Yeah, I think that is true. He once used the metaphor that the church should be a field hospital. And that was his approach, that, you know, if someone has a serious wound, you're not going to talk about their cholesterol or other health-monitored events - that the most important thing was dealing with the wound in front of them. And then he even likened his priests and bishops to take on the smell of the sheep, to really feel the pain people were carrying. So that was very much a part of his papacy.
INSKEEP: In the few seconds that we have, I don't know that you ever got to see him in person or be close to him, but what was it like when he was around people?
KESICKI: Well, he's very gregarious. I can remember one time I met him, and I said I was a Jesuit. And he said back in Italian, e la tua colpa, which means that's your fault.
INSKEEP: (Laughter).
KESICKI: He had a very playful demeanor about him. Also, I remember once going to him when my father had cancer. And his immediate - he grabbed me close and said, I will pray for him. These kinds of things made him just emanate warmth, love and compassion.
INSKEEP: Father Tim Kesicki, thanks for your insights. Really appreciate it.
KESICKI: Thank you.
INSKEEP: He's the former head of the Jesuit Conference of Canada and the United States, speaking with us on this morning that we have learned that Pope Francis has died at the age of 88.
(SOUNDBITE OF FREDRIK LUNDBERG'S "TWO BIRDS") Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
NPR transcripts are created on a rush deadline by an NPR contractor. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of NPR’s programming is the audio record.
