STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:
It's very rare that an American president would say this.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: We are having discussions with Hamas. We are helping Israel in those discussions 'cause we're talking about Israeli hostages.
INSKEEP: The news there is the first part - quote, "we are having discussions with Hamas." The United States very, very rarely negotiates directly with groups it considers terrorist organizations, and Hamas certainly qualifies. The administration says it is speaking with Hamas directly to secure the release of an American Israeli hostage still believed to be alive - Edan Alexander. The administration also wants to secure the bodies of four American Israelis. Brian Katulis is following all of this. He's a senior fellow with the Middle East Institute. Good morning, sir.
BRIAN KATULIS: Good morning, Steve.
INSKEEP: Why does the United States normally say it will not negotiate with terrorists?
KATULIS: It does not want to encourage terrorist groups to get seats at the table by killing, kidnapping, doing all sorts of things that are against the rules of war. So typically, and as you said, it's rare for the United States to admit that it's talking to terrorists, but we've done it. It's not unprecedented. We've done it in different instances, and mostly to try to get Americans who are unjustly detained home.
INSKEEP: I'm intrigued by the way you phrased that because you didn't say it's rare for the United States to talk to terrorists. You said it's rare for the United States to admit it talks to terrorists. Do you think this happens more often than we would find out about?
KATULIS: Oh, for sure. And certainly, there are certain policy restrictions we place on our own diplomats just so that we don't want to encourage these sorts of actions by terrorists. But we talk to terror groups all the time in efforts to try to secure cessations of hostilities, other things. It's often not diplomats that do this. It's people, sometimes, in the intelligence community. Sometimes, they are people one step removed. Yes.
INSKEEP: I mean, that's essentially how people have been talking with Hamas in this instance. We pretend not to talk with them, but then conversations happen through intermediaries. That's been the whole way the ceasefire has been worked out, for example, over the past more than a year.
KATULIS: Absolutely. And Qatar, as well as Egypt, are the two countries that we lean on heavily - not only in this instance but also, if you remember in Afghanistan with the Taliban, we gained the release of some Americans there. All of the negotiations were done by, with and through these other countries. And it's just the part of how you do business these days because terrorist groups have made themselves a bigger factor in geopolitics. And if you want to look at means besides war to try to get things done, that's what you got to do.
INSKEEP: OK. So what are the pros and cons of choosing to engage with Hamas on this specific issue, trying to win the release of a hostage?
KATULIS: Well, the one big pro is that - and Trump has stated this - is that he's prioritized just getting hostages home. He's done this in Venezuela recently in his first few weeks in office. He got Marc Fogel home from Russia, which is a different instance. But the one big pro is that you may be able to break the logjam which is present because of Israel's certain stance on negotiations and moving forward with this ceasefire. I think the con is that it actually sort of, when they announced this, I think caught Israel off guard and embarrassed them, potentially. Israel does not want to see just Americans coming home. They've got a lot of pressure from their own people, obviously, families of hostages who are still alive. And that could produce a gap between the U.S. and Israel and other partners. I think the other big con on all of this is, obviously, it could incentivize terrorist groups like Hamas to do more of this.
INSKEEP: Take more hostages and see what you can get for them, I suppose.
KATULIS: Yep.
INSKEEP: I want to ask if you understand the broader situation. We just heard from Aya Batrawy that the next phase of the ceasefire was expected to come. It's held up. Israel wants to renegotiate the terms. They seem to have a different goal. The United States is also trying to help with that, taking Israel's side in that. What is going on here? What is Israel going for?
KATULIS: Well, that's unclear because Israel itself has not been clear about its long-term end game in Gaza, and it's because of those divisions in Netanyahu's government. Some of the right-wing extremist voices want to take over Gaza. They're pretty pleased with Trump - with what Trump has been saying. There are others who essentially say, look, we need to separate. We need some sort of pathway to a two-state solution. That's what the consensus is in the Middle East. If you saw from Egypt earlier this week and all of the Arab nations, that's what they want.
So what's going on here is it's not just a negotiation about getting a couple of dozen people who are held hostage home and the release of hundreds of more Palestinian prisoners. It's really setting the terms for, what does the long-term vision look like there? And that's why it's been so difficult. It was difficult for the Biden team to get to the deal that was achieved right before they left office. And this is difficult in part because the end of the first phase of this ceasefire passed last weekend. And Israel was dragging its heels in part because it still has not wanted to really, fully decide or clarify what it is driving for in terms of the end state in Gaza.
INSKEEP: Just got about 15 seconds. But is Prime Minister Netanyahu effectively just stalling - stalling and waiting to see what turns up?
KATULIS: Yes. And I fear that we may be slipping back into war here. All of these signals point to perhaps even more conflict between Israel and Hamas, and that would be devastating.
INSKEEP: Brian Katulis is a senior fellow with the Middle East Institute. Thanks for your insights. Really appreciate it.
KATULIS: Thanks, Steve. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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