DAVID BIANCULLI, HOST:
This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli. The Academy Awards are Sunday. Today, we feature interviews with three nominees - first, actor Jeremy Strong. He's probably best known for his role in the HBO series "Succession," playing the troubled character of Kendall Roy. In the film "The Apprentice," Strong is nominated for his role as the unscrupulous lawyer Roy Cohn, who mentored a young Donald Trump as he was establishing himself in his father's real estate business. In the 1950s, Cohn was infamous for being the chief counsel to Senator Joseph McCarthy's Senate investigation into suspected communists. Cohn and McCarthy also were leaders in the antigay movement that led to an executive order banning gay people from serving in government. But Cohn was a closeted gay man who died of AIDS. He never came out and insisted that his disease wasn't AIDS but was liver cancer. Strong's performance personifies what was written about Cohn on his patch on the AIDS Memorial Quilt - bully, coward, victim. Terry spoke with Jeremy Strong last October.
Let's begin with a scene from early in the film when Trump and Cohn first meet. Trump has just gotten accepted to a private dining club in Manhattan. Cohn is seated at a table with several mobsters, including Fat Tony Salerno, the boss of the Genovese crime family. When Cohn notices Trump, whom he's never seen before, he asks his friend to bring Trump to the table. Cohn is interested in finding out who Trump is. Trump is played by Sebastian Stan. Jeremy Strong, as Cohn, speaks first.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE APPRENTICE")
JEREMY STRONG: (As Roy Cohn) What is your business, Donald?
SEBASTIAN STAN: (As Donald Trump) Real estate. I'm vice president of The Trump Organization.
STRONG: (As Roy Cohn) Oh, you're Fred Trump's kid?
STAN: (As Donald Trump) That's right.
STRONG: (As Roy Cohn) He's Fred Trump's kid. It sounds like your father's a little tangled up. It looks like he could use a good lawyer.
(LAUGHTER)
STAN: (As Donald Trump) Well...
STRONG: (As Roy Cohn) But tell us about it.
STAN: (As Donald Trump) Right now the government and the NAACP are suing us. They're saying our apartments are segregated.
STRONG: (As Roy Cohn) This is America. You can rent to whoever the hell you damn want.
STAN: (As Donald Trump) But our lawyer wants us to pay a huge fine to settle.
STRONG: (As Roy Cohn) Oh.
STAN: (As Donald Trump) And we can't. It's going to bankrupt us and ruin the company, so...
STRONG: (As Roy Cohn) You tell the Feds to [expletive] themselves.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: (As character) Damn straight.
STRONG: (As Roy Cohn) File a lawsuit. Always file a lawsuit. Fight them in court. Make them prove you're discriminating.
STAN: (As Donald Trump) Wow. I guess I might have to get us a new lawyer.
STRONG: (As Roy Cohn) Of course, it helps if Nixon and the attorney general are your pals.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)
TERRY GROSS: Jeremy Strong, welcome to FRESH AIR. I love the film, and that scene has so much energy to it. You have such swagger in it.
STRONG: Thank you, Terry. I'm honored to be talking to you. Thanks for having me.
GROSS: Oh, it is totally my pleasure. You know, a biopic is different from a film based on an original story. So you had a character who is a known person who you had to portray. What did you do to know, to watch, to listen to him before playing him?
STRONG: Yeah, you know, I'll just say I haven't watched the film in a while, and hearing that scene back - it's really so charged, isn't it? And Roy in that scene encapsulates the playbook which the film examines, the idea that, you know, what Roy Cohn stood for, these principles that he passed on to Donald Trump - always attack, deny everything and never admit defeat - they're all kind of - the DNA of that scene contains all of them. It's a great introduction of a character.
But your question about playing historical figures - you know, I've done a fair amount of work playing people who, you know, were either alive or were historical figures - John Nicolay in "Lincoln," James Reeb in "Selma," Jerry Rubin in "The Trial Of The Chicago 7," Lee Harvey Oswald. I feel always an enormous sense of responsibility to a kind of historical veracity and accuracy to try and capture and render the essence of these people. And ultimately, it's not an intellectual - you're not writing an essay on someone. So the information is sort of emotional, intuitive, visceral information.
GROSS: But did you ever fact-check any of it? Like, did you feel a responsibility to not only be - have acting truth but have, you know, like, fact truth?
STRONG: Absolutely. Yes, I absolutely feel a sort of fidelity to truth with a capital T, which is funny in this case because Roy Cohn - if he's anything, to me, he's, like, the progenitor of alternative facts. He's, like, not someone who really espoused truth with a capital T. He thought truth was a plaything, that you could do as you wish with it.
GROSS: And I should mention here that the film was written by Gabriel Sherman, who is a journalist who wrote a book about, you know, Murdoch and Fox News.
STRONG: Yeah, a book about Roger Ailes and...
GROSS: Yeah. I should have said Ailes, right?
STRONG: Well, no, I mean, it's also about Murdoch. But, of course...
GROSS: Yeah.
STRONG: ...I read that book when I was working on "Succession" because, you know, during that time...
GROSS: Right. Well, that's the thing. Like, I feel like your recent career is so connected to Trump because "Succession"...
STRONG: There's sectionality there, yeah.
GROSS: Yeah. What I want to know is, do you feel very adjacent to Trump - like, that you know Trump? Because your characters have been so, you know, related to Trump in one way or another and very directly related in "The Apprentice."
STRONG: You know, I don't.
(LAUGHTER)
STRONG: I don't. If I'm honest, I feel that my job is to almost be a sort of vessel, which involves kind of clearing myself out. I went on a silent meditation retreat last week, Terry. And the teacher, who's an incredible man named Jon Kabat-Zinn, who's written a lot of great books...
GROSS: Oh, yeah, yeah. I know who he is, yeah.
STRONG: Jon talked about a term called anatta, which means no-self or not-self. And it really resonated with me because I find that that is the place where I tend to be when I'm working, I think, creatively. But your question about whether I felt adjacent to Trump - I guess I don't. I guess I feel like my job is to be a musician, a first chair musician, to play whatever instrument it is that I'm given...
GROSS: Yes.
STRONG: ...To play whatever piece of music that I'm given.
GROSS: I'm going to stop you there because I was going to ask you if you notate your scripts as if they were music. Because, like in the scene that we just heard, there's real music in your voice. You've got a rhythm.
STRONG: Thank you. You know, I used to. When I was in college, I sort of have held on to old scripts and plays. And when I did, you know, "American Buffalo" or something, "Look Back In Anger" in college, I have a million notes, and it's sort of notated and annotated to death. And then at a certain point, I just stopped writing anything down. I guess at a certain point, you develop a trust in your unconscious, intuitive self that if it's properly absorbed something, then it will be there somehow.
Now, the - I think voice is very important to me for any character. And Roy had a very, very particular way of speaking and a very specific pentameter. And the music of that is something that becomes your job to both master and then throw away. You know, he writes in "Hamlet" - Shakespeare says that use can almost change the stamp of nature. And I feel that actors, especially when you're attempting to do some kind of transformational work, which is the kind of work that I love the most and have been inspired by in my life the most, your job is to kind of change the stamp of your nature. And voice is a really key part of that because there's something about a person's voice that is like their eyes. It's such a way in to that person.
GROSS: Well, why don't we listen to the real Roy Cohn's voice? This is from an interview with Tom Snyder...
STRONG: Yeah.
GROSS: ...On his late-night show, "Tomorrow," as...
STRONG: I probably watched this a thousand times.
GROSS: ...Really? - as broadcast in 1977. So here we go.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE TOMORROW SHOW")
TOM SNYDER: Now here is Roy Cohn, who appeared recently on the cover of Esquire magazine. And the title of that article, as I recall, sir, was "The Legal Executioner."
ROY COHN: Yeah.
SNYDER: And it went on to say that you are really a tough man and that at times, you can...
COHN: Tough, mean, vicious. So...
SNYDER: What does that kind of publicity do for your business in New York?
COHN: Oh, it's fantastic. The worse the adjectives, the better it is for business.
SNYDER: What are they looking for? What are they buying?
COHN: Scare value. Going back over a period of years, when I call somebody or write a letter or something like that, this is supposed to make them tremble and think unless they act promptly and reasonably, that all sorts of terrible consequences are going to flow.
GROSS: So what was it like playing somebody who you find, like - is despicable (laughter) too strong a word?
STRONG: I mean, I don't think it's too strong a word. But, you know, you have to really check that at the door as an actor when you approach a role.
GROSS: ...And just be him.
STRONG: You have to leave your judgment at the door and try to, in an almost diagnostic way, identify their wounds and their struggle and then fight their fight the way they did. I'm simply trying to inhabit him in a fully dimensional way, as you do for any character.
BIANCULLI: Jeremy Strong speaking with Terry Gross last October. He's nominated for an Oscar for his supporting role as Roy Cohn in the film "The Apprentice." We'll hear from his co-star in the film, Sebastian Stan, after a break. This is FRESH AIR.
This is FRESH AIR. Today, we're featuring our interviews with Oscar contenders. Sebastian Stan, whose credits include playing Tommy Lee in the TV series "Pam & Tommy," and Bucky Barnes in Marvel's "Captain America" and Avengers movies, is nominated for an Academy Award for his starring role as Donald Trump in the film "The Apprentice."
The movie begins in 1973, when Trump is 27, still working for his father's real estate development company and trying to make a name for himself. The company is being sued for discriminating against Black people in its rental units. Trump convinces his father to hire Roy Cohn as their attorney. Cohn becomes Trump's mentor, teaching him how to admit nothing and deny everything, go on the attack and intimidate through the threat of lawsuits. Terry Gross recently spoke with Sebastian Stan.
Let's start with a scene from "The Apprentice." Trump is planning to build Trump Tower and is trying to persuade the mayor of New York City, Ed Koch, that the building will be so extraordinary Koch should give him tax breaks. Roy Cohn, played by Jeremy Strong, also is in the room. You'll hear him jump into the conversation.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE APPRENTICE")
STAN: (As Donald Trump) I really think this is going to be one of the most exceptional buildings anywhere in the world. And frankly, there's never been anything like it - 68 stories tall, 28 sides, a million square feet. Every unit will have amenities like you wouldn't believe, and the high floors have exceptional views over Central Park. The lobby, the floors will all be marble, pink paradiso marble from Italy. It'll have the largest atrium in the world, a 60-foot waterfall spanned by shops and retail and restaurants. And I think it's going to be something very special. Frankly, there's never been anything like it.
IAN D CLARK: (As Ed Koch) And what are you going to call it?
STAN: (As Donald Trump) Trump Tower.
CLARK: (As Ed Koch) Trump Tower - oh, that's interesting.
STRONG: (As Roy Cohn) Look, he has a great track record, so we think this is a very reasonable ask.
CLARK: (As Ed Koch) Well, I - as I frequently say about his buildings, the merits are fine. The thing is, we're just not going to give you the tax breaks. Why would we? I mean, I can't let you get rich on the backs of the people of New York and their treasury. I can't...
STAN: (As Donald Trump) Well, Mr. Mayor, I mean, first of all...
CLARK: (As Ed Koch) ...Do that, Donald.
STRONG: (As Roy Cohn) Look, Mr. Mayor, my client...
STAN: (As Donald Trump) Well, you're not. You're not, Mr. Mayor, because I'm building a 68-story building that's going to employ 5,000 construction workers.
CLARK: (As Ed Koch) And we have heard stories about the construction workers working on your projects. They don't get paid. They have liens against you, Donald.
STAN: (As Donald Trump) I'm trying to employ people in New York and turn us back around...
CLARK: (As Ed Koch) You're trying to just get...
STAN: (As Donald Trump) ...Towards the future. And you're being a very unfair guy 'cause frankly, what do you know about me? What do you know about the amount of money that I made on my own? You don't know anything, to be perfectly honest, Mr. Mayor.
CLARK: (As Roy Cohn) Donald.
STAN: (As Donald Trump) You don't know me at all.
CLARK: (As Ed Koch) Oh.
STAN: (As Donald Trump) But you will. You'll never forget me after this 'cause I won't forget what you just did. Trump Tower will be built with or without you.
CLARK: (As Ed Koch) OK.
STAN: (As Donald Trump) You're about to be sued, Mr. Mayor.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)
GROSS: Sebastian Stan, welcome to FRESH AIR. It's a pleasure to have you on the show. I think you're great.
STAN: Thank you. Thank you for having me.
GROSS: So after choosing that clip - first of all, I should say, some listeners were probably thinking, he doesn't sound like Trump. What would you say to that?
STAN: Well, I mean, I would say that Trump did not sound like Trump when he was in his mid-to-late 30s, which is when that was sort of happening. And I think that I did make some conscious choices very carefully with the voice not only just to honor the age and what he sounded like at the time - which, to me, sounded very different than today - but also to not lean into it as much as it's become popular to do, because a big challenge with this role was obviously to avoid falling into caricature and into sort of the version of a cartoon that he's somewhat become - one would argue even willingly on his own part (laughter), whether he's aware of that or not - because the voice, along with mannerisms and other physical characteristics that he has that we've become so accustomed to and we've been so oversaturated with, really had to be kind of very - I had to very carefully select and maneuver them and kind of earn them over the period of time of the movie, very much like he did as he grew into what we see today, but in part because I needed to bring audience in on this journey as opposed to alienating them from the beginning with what they already sort of know and expect.
GROSS: After choosing that clip, I read that you improvised some of that scene.
STAN: That whole clip actually was improvised. Yes (laughter). The scene in the script, as it was written - it started out with, you know, it just said, Donald finishes introducing Trump Tower, and he sits down, and he goes, well, what do you think, Mr. Mayor? And he goes, oh, very fascinating. What do you call it? So - but in the manner that we had been shooting, by the time we got to the scene, I was already prepared to sort of have something ready because our director was always encouraging.
And really, the script was asking for this. You know, it was always asking for the beginning and the end of the scenes, which weren't there. You know, we had a lot of the middle of the bulk of what we needed - right? - that was written, but there were many times where we needed to kind of, like, find out about what surrounded it. And, you know, that was part of what I did to prepare many times the night before with this scene and other scenes, where I would very kind of surgically construct an improvisation in his way of speaking that I would get from various interviews that I'd collected over time and things that he had said to Barbara Walters and Larry King and many things that he had said to Ed Koch and all kinds of footage that I had placed together.
GROSS: You made the film while Biden was president in between Trump's two terms. What's it like watching his second term after having played him?
STAN: Well, that's a really great question, and it's a - it's one where there's no real clear answer that I can give you. It's a mixed bag. It's a mixed bag. I mean, in a lot of ways, a lot of things look very predictable to me, especially having studied him for this film - the victimhood, blaming, the revenge tactics, all that we go in depth in the film that he had absorbed from Roy Cohn. You really do see - I think, even if you look at the inauguration, I mean - and even at the debate - right? - with Kamala Harris, I mean, you really see what we talk about in the movie, of these sort of ways he's learned to flip it around on the other person and kind of just always just be denying reality and reshaping the truth as long as it fits his narrative and the complete utter lack of acceptance for any criticism or any wrongdoing or anything whatsoever.
So it's eerily familiar. It's predictable. It's also, I may say, tragic because I guess, for me, you know, I also feel like I saw a version of this overweight kid that was paranoid and insecure and desperate for attention that was made to pay a big price at Daddy's big betrayal, sending him off to military school where he had to kind of - you know, whatever happened there that dehumanized him further and the revenge that he's been enacting out. You know, and at the same time, it's hard not to sort of find some of it upsetting as well because I do feel so much of it is rage and anger that's been suppressed and undealt with that we're all having to kind of just, you know, deal with and pay a price for.
GROSS: Playing him, I'm sure you had to be him and see things from his point of view, which requires you, the actor, to have empathy for Trump, the character that you're portraying.
STAN: Well, I think as an actor, you have to kind of go through a process where you look at, what are the things here that I feel that are useful for me to do this in the right way that it's asking of me? And what are the things that I feel that are going to work against me? And then you have to sort of become an investigator. And you have to, in a way, be a bodyguard to the character you're playing.
And I've wrestled with a degree of powerlessness as a child that I have felt growing up as a result of a lot of change that happened very quickly in formative years where I didn't feel safe and changing countries and changing schools and changing homes and caretakers coming and going and so on. And that's affected my life in a certain way, but I would argue nowhere near the degree of powerlessness that I feel he must've gone through in order to create such an ulterior ego to the extent that he has, because that's what I really see it's about with him. It's always power and mistrust and paranoia. And everything is transactional. That's how he operates.
BIANCULLI: Sebastian Stan, speaking to Terry Gross. He's nominated for an Academy Award for his starring role as Donald Trump in "The Apprentice." After a break, we'll hear from another of this year's best actor Oscar nominees, Adrien Brody, nominated for his starring role in "The Brutalist." And John Powers reviews "Flow," an animated film from Latvia that has earned Oscar nominations for both best animated feature and best international film. I'm David Bianculli, and this is FRESH AIR.
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